Pruning the Tree to allow for New Growth.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Frater LMHPCD on March 31, 2009 at 3:35pm

To mix science with the Qabalah you might want to study some numerology or gematria. It should shed some light on the subject for you.

Permalink Reply by Leanne on April 15, 2009 at 5:39pm

Very interesting discussion! I do not have much background knowledge of Qabalah as yet....but hoping to rectify this....but with all (seemingly) opaque systems of thought...i like to speak from my personal experience to begin with...this obviously flys in the face of scientific methodology which is supposed to remove all traces of the personal (yet do they really??- i think many scientists are as influenced by personal agendas as the rest of us mere mortals..) ...the beauty of speaking from personal experience, however, is that we begin to get 'inside' the objectified words/systems describing that reality.....and from this level you begin to see that what is really of the Truth...crosses all boundaries/systems....one begins to see it described everywhere...with different words but with the same underlying experience......this then builds a bridge between systems and makes it much easier to reach other people (of other systems) and then show them the connections...in other words, we speak their particular 'language' (whether it be science or a particular religion) and then connect it with our 'language'...(in this case Qabalah). This somehow also demystifies the experience...making it far more accessible.

Also: there is something about speaking from personal experience (rather than conceptual)...which reaches right into the heart of all people...and is far more convincing.....i don't think 'logic' is as convincing as most people think...you can present 'fact's/science to the cows come home but i have seen people simply switch off and not be interested (sometimes, as pointed out, scientists most of all! Think of JAW and Robert Schoch trying to convince the scientific community of the greater age of the sphinx!)

Therefore, i would be very interested in hearing about your experience of the relevance of the Tree of Life to you personally....what experiences of the Infinite has it given you....or triggered within you? This obviously connects up with the purpose of the Mysteries...which i think was about experiential knowledge...rather than just conceptual.

I think all human beings are ultimately looking for transformational meaning..meet that need and we will reach far more people... then have the 'facts' and 'figures' on hand to back it up..

Permalink Reply by Sally Kaiser on June 25, 2009 at 1:59am

I think that offering insights is one good way ... the student who wants to learn will find such things and integrate them.

Those who come to the path later may even remember encountering them (seminal or germinal seeds that they may be).

Thus the lessons and the lexicon and the related items might be diagrammed and discussed as an exercise in presentational wisdom .. and the dialog then begins with questions, and additions and other items which will come to the fore.

Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on July 11, 2009 at 1:19pm

Discussing the Kabbalah or the Torah in our day and age is tantamount to telling people you are a religious fanatic. This is why the Great Network and sites like it are important because like-minded people can exchange ideas and learn form each other. It is difficult to find other people of the same cloth and when you do you can see that their experiences are not quite your own.

A lot of sincere neophytes are not willing to do the work that is necessary. J. Banger had a post that talked about getting rid of all outside distraction: TV, etc., etc. It will take dedication like that to achieve one's goal but for me that is a bit harsh. I tend to do what he suggest and I have done it for over three decades and when I got tire or stressed out because of the emptiness I would seek diversion and then later return to my researches. There is no shame in seeking periodic diversion as long as one keeps their eye on the goal and returns to their researches.

I have thought about this question for over three decades concerning how to discuss these matter with the uninitiate and I find that the ancients got it right as far as discussing these deep secrets of the transcendent: God. The ancient wrote their books and left it up to the individual to WORK OUT HIS OWN SALVATION.

I once got quite angry with a Catholic Priest when I overheard him say that the Church does not teach its symbolism because it is all around the individual and the person in quest of understanding will learn it from osmosis. Can you imagine anyone making such a statement about education? Yet, I came to realize that until the individual is ready with a deep desite to know God he can not be taught these things we have spent a lifetime learning?. How do you give someone your experiences? How do you get them to drop their biases, prejudices and preconceived notions? These are the dark parts of our soul that we have been shedding for a lifetime and each individual has different ideas as to who and what God is. How do you reach out in love to give others what you have when they are looking into you face as if you are stark-raving mad?

You can see the wisdom of the ancients in their silence. This is the great secret of the secret societies. You can not give the esoteric science away if you wanted to. Hence the admonition of silence. You can get on the roof tops and scream this esoteric science to the world but no one is listening. Hence: SILENCE. The tree that fall in the forest is not heard.

The ANCIENTS SAGES placed their understanding in the sacred scriptures, art works and monuments of the world then they became disinterested in the results. It is left up to the transcendent: God to educate the soul: NO MAN HAS BEEN GIVEN THAT RESPONSIBILITY. We have individually done nothing on our own accord to achieve what we have learned. It is only by the grace of God that we individually know what we know. How do you give another the wisdom of God????

I do know that during the Golden Eras of humanity great societies have taught their peoples this science from birth. But there is a sine wave in history to knowing this knowledge. The Moon is a perfect example of this process. You can see the stages of the Moon waxing strong to the Full Moon and then waning to the New Moon. Think of this process in terms of knowing the esoteric science. This is why the New Testament has Jesus Christ growing strong and waxing in knowledge. Why does the New Testament use that word WAXING???? This tells us that knowledge of the Christ waxes and wanes throughout the course of history..

We all want recognition for our work but trying to teach what it took us individually a lifetime to learn is mostly ego or the quest for fame. I do know that what we have learned we should find a way to dispense it. The New Testament tells us not to hide our talent. In our time we have cyberspace. All that we worked for can disappear from cyberspace in the blink of an eye .We can put what we know on the internet and leave it in the hands of God. That is all we can individually do. I had a great deal of my research vanish from the AOL server. I know that people were discussing it because I followed it. It is out of my hands if the company goes out of business that is funding that server. Millions lost their data because of AOL's server going down. We can not take such things personally. It is the will of God that we do not gain from this science and loose everything that we have gained spiritually. "What have you gained if you have gained the whole world and lost your very soul?".

Permalink Reply by Cole Vasquez on July 22, 2009 at 7:49pm

My approach to this discussion was cloudy at best but all of the responses have elucidated the question and given me more. It seems clear that, being an oral tradition, Qabalah is intuitively obtained through experience of the scriptures, underneath it all is the Spirit that can be withdrawn at the mere sight of illusion. I see that Mr. Meegan has a very clear understanding for students who have not developed the patience to endure a gift, instead cutting off a hand to spite the heart. And what would the World be without a Fool like me? A better place!, which I think is an amazing point made so eloquently in the last sentence of Mr. Meegan's post. It is soo true that egotism and spiritualism even (the worst idea) have stepped into my path to poke and prod my mind into insanity. I have experienced some of the symptoms of arm-chair esoterics and it is a bitter taste. Surely a sound study and practice will show more lasting and Waxing effects on any students Spirit. And thanks to this website the amount of information to aid the Spirit towards its own salvation through hard work and a stronger Will to Love.

Without Wax
Cole